Wednesday, May 10, 2006

Lavud Continued

A correspondent wrote, in response to a response:

-----Original Message-----From: Yosef Gavriel Bechhofer rygb@aishdas.org
**** wrote:
>> In the Hararei Kedem to Sukkah 7a it is stated that RYBS suggested
>> that lavud only is effective (in creating a wall) horizontally, not
>> vertically. It is very convenient to say so in the sugyah there, but
>> very mechudash. Anyone ever heard such a thing before?


> It must be a total lack of understanding on my part, but isn't the
> opposite a mishna m'fureshes in Eiruvin 16b, "Makifin bishlosha chavalim
> zeh l'ma'lah mizeh"?


But in that same Mishna it adds Kanim and as Rashi says that Chavolim are Erev (horzontal) Kanim are Shesi (vertical).However perhaps RYBS was making this distinction only WRT Sukkah, as we find such distinction in the Maharsha, brought by the Mogein Avraham begining of 630, (as explained by the Lvushei Srad and Machatzis Hasehekel there), although there it is the exact opposite that Erev (horizontal) is worse then Shesi (vertical).

To which I respond:

RYBS is nosei v'nosein in that MA and MhS etc. His basic issue is that the Rambam in Hil. Sukkah 3:3 rules, according to the MA in the Rambam, that in a sukkah ketanah you need a tzuras ha'pesach besides the pas arba, which is shverr because anyway lavud should be mashlim the dofen. Yet in 3:4 the Rambam rules that a horizontal lavud *is* mashlim a mechitza.On this RYBS says a lavud works for the height of the wall to be mashlim 10t, but not in the width of the wall to be mashlim 7t, but only to close the pirtza. He goes on to "explain" that the height of a wall is one indivisible unit - because it is all one place - while the width of a wall is many separate parts (sounds very Rogatchoverish, but very unclear!). He notes that we find elsewhere horizontal lavud, such as in terms of kinyan hagbaha (more and more R'ish!!) in Kid. 26a. Hence, while lavus close the gap between the walls, it is the tzuras ha'pesach that is mashlim the shiur. (He then goes on to derive ramifications for the din of asui k'min gam).

Did RYBS forget the sugya several blatt hence of petzimei achsadra?!

In any event, I would like to understand this RYBS, because if it works out it is very helpful to a hypothesis I just developed to distinguish between a "dofen" (a unique law in Sukkah) and a "mechitza." V'dok.

KT,YGB

3 comments:

  1. I HATE TO DO THIS IN MIDDLE OF LAVUD BUT I THINK IT WOULD HELP
    WHAT BRACHA IS SUSHI?
    WHAT IS THE IKAR?
    HOW DO WE DECIDE?
    MY THEORY WOULD BE SHEHAKOL SIMPILY PUT THE FISH WOULD SEEM TO BE THE IKAR AND THE RICE IS SOFEK SHEHAKOL ANY WAY AND THERE IS THE SOFEK BRACHA SHEHAKOEL KLAL SO AM I RIGHT THANKS?

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  2. 1. Sushi is mezonos (assuming you make that bracha on rice).

    2. The rice here is the same as the dough pocket would be if the sushi was baked.

    3. The filling always comes l'lafes the pocket or wrap.

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  3. would'nt the rice just come to ledabek bealma, specially when people wouldn't pay the price they do if the roll would be filled in with fruit or nothing, which could show that it is the ikar, also sushi means raw fish, so even the name talks about the ikar. also it is not baked together but rather you roll the rice ready over the fish, so why would be considered a filled dough?

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